Pitching tips with screenwriter and story producer Holly Lyons

0:03Caris: Welcome to Breaking Screen, a podcast about the Australian screen industry and the creative people within it. I'm your host, Caris Bizzaca and I'm recording this podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, where I'm very grateful to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands. Always was, always will be.

0:21Today's episode features Holly Lyons, a screenwriter with extensive experience in Australia and the yeah UK and more than 500 hours of broadcast credits as a writer or script editor.

0:31Holly is currently associate story producer at Home and Away and the founder of Screenwriting Scriptease, which involves script assessments, script editing and running writers rooms. Holly also worked at AFTRS for five years as a screenwriting lecturer and presenting short courses, which brings us to our topic for today. So one of the things Holly has researched and lectured on is pitching. It's a crucial skill for many of us in the screen industry, and there are many different types of pitches, whether it's pitching an idea to a producer or network, Competing in a pitching competition on stage or pitching an idea in a writer's room.

1:08Throughout the episode, Holly talks about her experience with pitching, why it's important, how to prepare, what to do about nerves, the positives of a strong pitch regardless of the outcome and much more.

1:19Before we get to the chat, remember if you liked this episode to rate and give us a review wherever you listen to podcasts, follow us on Instagram through @ Breaking Screen Podcast or subscribe to our newsletter through breakingscreenpodcast.com. Without further ado, here's screenwriter and story producer Holly Lyons.

1:41We always start the podcast the same way, which is talking about inciting incidents, which you would be very familiar with as a writer. um So what would you say is the inciting incident of your career?

1:53Holly: Caris, I think this is your best question and I loved it. It's given me more anxiety thinking about my inciting incident. It's just so muddy. I don't really have one.

2:04I used to watch shows that I loved as a child like Degrassi Junior High and 90210 And I have diaries of where I've written down where the commercial breaks were in 90210 specifically. And I remember very clearly saying to my parents, I will not be able to make dinner tonight because 90210 will be starting. and I will not be able to have family dinner. And I would get permission like on Friday that on Sunday I would not be available. And at a party recently, someone I went to high school with randomly said, oh, I remember you in year eight declaring that you were going to write television. So I did not realise it was so early. 90210 was like ah year 11. But I have diaries where I analysed television story and

3:00as a teenager. So i that's not really an inciting incident. My first inciting incident where I was paid in a role, my uni, I did an internship on a show called Water Rats, which was filmed on Goat Island in Sydney Harbour. You had to get a water taxi to the production office. And I did a two week internship there. And then when I was finishing uni, the script coordinator called me and she said, I've decided to move home to Tasmania. Would you like my job? And I said, yes, please. That would be very convenient. So I started as script coordinator on Water Rats. My boss at the time was Michaeley O'Brien, who absolutely supported me. I loved her. I've actually ah seen her quite recently. So it's a longstanding relationship. So that was my first paid job in a script department. But my first paid script, my first broadcast credit was for a kid's show called Pig's Breakfast. which was was a Southern Star production. And that was also a connection I had made at Water Rats. Amanda Higgs said to me, would I like to write an episode of a kid's show? So it's hard to say, like, what is an inciting incident? Is it when you got paid to write? Or is it when you declared to your whole entire high school class that you were going to be a television writer? I don't know.

4:28Caris: m Yeah, definitely. And how funny, I've heard Amanda Higgs name come up a number of times in different interviews as someone who's given people their first break. So shout out to Amanda Higgs. She gives a lot of people's inciting incident.

4:41Holly: There we go.

4:43Caris: ah um and so, yes, you you currently work on ah Home and Away. What does your current role involve? Yeah.

4:52Holly: Okay, so my current role, um I'm in the story room Monday and Tuesday with the team. My boss kind of leads the room, but my role is pitching stories all day, long-term stories, short-term stories, stories that solve a problem in the moment. That's Monday and Tuesday. today We produce five half hours a week. And then on Wednesday, me and my story team move off and then I champion that story.

5:23I work on those five episodes with my two storyliners who have the most amazing story brains in the industry and also they type all day. So they've got two really important skills going on and they also keep track of our locations and sets. For example,

5:42We can't have more than 12 scenes in a set a week. So their job is to keep an eye on the tally. So on Wednesday, the three of us go through the notes and then on Wednesday night, we send the notes out to our freelance writers and And then I meet with our freelance writers Thursday, Friday. And my job in that is to brief the writer on their episode, work through any logic issues that have come up. And really, it's another draft of the plot. So basically, if you think the whiteboard is a blank page on Monday morning, by the end of Tuesday, you've got nearly 100 scenes

6:24Wednesday, you sort out those 100 scenes and make sure they make sense. And then Thursday and Friday, you're now up to the third draft meeting with the writer, incorporating their thoughts on the process. I'm exhausted just talking about it. It's relentless story is my is um that role.

6:44Caris: And what do you feel that working on a series like Home and Away has taught you as a writer?

6:50Holly: so many things. It is the ah hotbed of creativity. Okay, so it's taught me resilience. It's definitely taught me speed. like we we so Somebody asked me recently, oh, what happens if you don't finish the day? And I went, oh, what what do you mean you don't finish the day? Oh, you know, like you just haven't finished plotting the five episodes by the end of Tuesday. And I'm like, well, that's never happened. And also you you just don't leave the office until you're finished. So you you want to finish if you want to get home. And I thought that was funny that maybe on another show they might say, oh, you know, it's four o'clock. How about we all take a break now? So resilience, speed. But the other thing that it's really taught me resilience.

7:39How to be creative to meet production needs. This happens all the time. We are always bending to production. You always have to pivot, change your story plan for production. And I meet a lot of writers who, when they get a note, they're really attached to what they've already done and they don't want to give it up.

8:02We're never attached. We will pivot at the drop of the hat. For instance, a year or so ago, one of the main actors on the show wanted to retire. Lynne McGranger decided 32 years was enough.

8:16We had the most amazing privilege to write her exit story. And my boss came up with the idea that it would be about memory because we wanted to give her a lot of flashbacks of all the characters who have been part of her life, Irene's life on the show, but we wanted to embed the flashbacks in story. So we gave her an Alzheimer's diagnosis. So you could have these flashbacks, but they weren't just random montages. They meant something to this character.

8:48So that was... a creative challenge. How do you honour this character who'd been on the show for so long? How do you do an exit story that has meaning? And we had wanted to do an Alzheimer's story for a long a long time, so it was a great opportunity. And even it goes down to the most simple ones. We had an actor on the show aged about two playing baby Archie and we got knock on the door from production um Archie's not really in the mood to do any acting today. could What could you do about that? So it really teaches you to be fast and creative and production bringing the challenges is just the best thing. My boss gets there about an hour before me in the morning. I'll arrive on a Monday. Did anything happen? Any actors sick? Did someone break their leg?

9:38Like for me, it's like very exciting to be on a show that you move as fast as the the show. So I think it that's a skill, like to be able to give up story that you might have spent eight weeks on.

9:54You know, and it could be an active problem. It could be a production problem. Anything can happen for you to have to change. So yeah, it's pretty, pretty juicy, pretty juicy place to work.

10:05Caris: Yeah, definitely. And so you also have a company, Screenwriting Scriptease. Can you tell me a little bit about that and some of the work that you do through there?

10:15Holly: Yes, Caris. i I was a lecturer at AFTRS for a few years. And what I learned during that time was that I actually really, really liked teaching. This was a surprise to me. and there was something very interesting to me distilling down my craft to have to explain it to someone else. I'd never really thought about how do you write a script? It was was just instinct. And then to have to explain it was really interesting to me. And when I decided it was time to go back into the industry and I would be giving up teaching, how will I connect with emerging writers? How will I read this material from people who aren't jaded yet?

10:58And so that's when I launched my business. That was probably five years ago now, maybe longer actually. And it's just had a life of its own. And basically I give feedback to clients who have got their script to a certain stage and they're ready for professional feedback. um But most recently, two different sets of creative people have got me into their writer's room on their web series. And I just find that quite freeing because Home and Away is an amazing place to work, but you do have a lot of production constraints. And then it's quite nice that in your production break, the last writer's room I did was about a werewolf and a vampire.

11:44So it's really nice to be able to access that and to just meet emerging writers that you admire, They don't have a broadcaster. They're going to put it on YouTube and they just want to get their content out there. So it's that's really what my side business is doing. It's keeping my story brain fresh and keeping me connected to all the emerging writers in Australia. I hope that's what it is doing.

12:12Caris: Mmm And yeah, I definitely know a number of people who studied at AFTRS while you were lecturing there and got so much out of your um lectures. So just wanted to add that. But um one of the things that you talked about when you were there was about pitching. And so I just was wondering, what's your background in pitching? What are some of the things that you've pitched? Yeah.

12:36Holly: caris So I love talking about pitching. So when I first got to England, I entered this competition run by the EBU and I pitched a show. I must have been about 22, 23. I pitched a show called Hamlet's Diner. I mean, what ah even now it's a crazy show.

12:55And I had to pitch it to the BBC were there, ZDF, the French government channel. ahs I think it was a Norway channel. Thank God we were pitching in English. And I pitched Hamlet's Diner and I won 15,000 euros. And I was like, this pitching game is the best. Like I just arrived in London.

13:19I needed 15,000 euros, right? This was fabulous. So from that moment on, I'm ready to be pitching. So one thing I like i really like performative pitching, so when you stand up like in that way in front of a panel, and one of the things i really like is a gimmick because I think it makes a big impression So I pitched a show to, at the time he was CBBC commissioning editor. It's a fabulous show. It's a coming of age show for about a five-year-old called Don't Forget Your Underpants. And it was around the time my kids were little and they were learning all these etiquette rules. For instance, my boys were allowed to pee in the garden at home, no problem. But when they peed in the garden when we're on a play date, don't pee in other people's houses. So you're constantly changing the rules on them. Don't pee in the school playground. Don't pee there. Oh, can you please pee there because I can't be bothered taking three children back in the house to take you to the toilet, right?

14:25um So this was the show Don't Forget Your Underpants and I got a pair of my son's underpants clean, I promise you, and I got Don't Forget Your Underpants embroidered on the knickers and I gave them to this um commissioning editor as part of my pitch. Now, this is a long time ago. i don't recommend giving children's underpants to to men at any circumstance these days. But a couple of years later I went back to his office and the underpants were pinned on his notice board and I was like, well, I definitely made an impression with that show, right? Yeah.

15:04A few years ago, my co-collaborator, Johanna Garvin and I, we pitched a show called Rocky & Me that we actually were very successful. we It was part of something called DisRupted and we got the funding from Screen Australia and it was broadcast on the ABC. And our pitch documents were, I thought, very good. And the story is largely based on Johanna Garvin's childhood. So we yeah in our pitch document, we used a lot of her photos from childhood.

15:36We also had in our pitch document a passion statement, which said it's not just about putting disability on the screen. We're having disability behind the screens. and every department was going to have someone with with a disability attached to it, every department, make-up, wardrobe, not just camera, and we put that in our budget. So I thought um our passion statement for that pitch was really good. And then when Jo went to the pitch,

16:06um The show was about getting your first set of wheels, your first wheelchair when you were about 11. And Jo took some L plates to the pitch because part of the story was about hanging L plates on the back of your wheelchair. And she handed the L plates to the three people on the panel.

16:25So I'm just always like, how are you going to stand out in your pitch? How are you going to make this pitch successful? I pitched a um ah play called Space Virgins very close to my heart. it was I was pitching it for the Australian Theatre for Young People, but my play is about, it's a sex education teen romp in space. So I handed the five people on the panel a condom. I did not realise in advance that at the atyp two of the people on the panel are teenagers who are part of the their drama group so i gave a 14 year old boy a condom in my in my um pitch but so sometimes you're like what impression are you going to make um but i just do urge everyone to stand out think about how you're going to stand out so yeah always loved pitching

17:20Caris: And you did a research project on pitching in 2017. Is that right? What what was that?

17:27Holly: um So one of my colleagues at AFTRS, Pen Thomas, was very interested in a biometric machine that AFTRS had acquired, I think, from America originally. And this machine, it was connected to audience testing. So part of what we wanted to do is scientifically test what makes a good pitch. So the idea of the research project, I pitched a show up that I love. It's called Detention. I pitch it three different ways. I pitched it from the character's point of view.

18:06number one number two i pitch it from a story point of view and number three i pitch it from the author's point of view from the creator's point of view and we got a group of about 30 or 40 test subjects and these were mainly producers some commissioning editors that i asked to come to afters so we hooked them up to the machine and then they were experienced the three pictures from these three different angles and the machine it measures heart rate.

18:38sweat, eye tracker, facial expressions like smiles or yawns, which was actually quite fascinating. Now, the weakness of the pitch is they are listening to the same show being pitched three times. So by the third pitch they have in different variations, but they have heard the show three times. And it was just a really fascinating, um the results were quite fascinating, like You could look at where people yawned, where people lost interest. You could look at where people smiled. You can look at where people laughed. You can look at where their heart rate went up.

19:16Okay. So do you want to know what we found out? Oh, yeah. Yeah. um Okay. So by far, the pitch that came from the author's point of view, the creator's point of view, had landed the most, the the best. Okay. Okay. And so this show was like, they I actually got it optioned by Matchbox. It went the furthest something has gone in a long time. And Matchbox called it Heartbreak High Behind Bars. So it was about a juvenile detention centre, teens in trouble behind bars, basically.

19:53And my authored pitch was all about why a passion statement, why I cared about this show, why it was important that I tell this story. And one of the things we did is um I lied in this presentation and I stole Stephen Fry's story. So did you know Stephen Fry's um went to juvie for about three months because he stole his mate's parents' credit card when he was at boarding school and he went on a spending spree. So Stephen Fry did three months behind bars for credit card fraud when he was a teenager.

20:30So I declared that this story was important to me because I too had gone to juvie for credit card fraud. And that was a total lie, but because I made it a personal story, it spiked the heart rate, it spiked the the sweat measure. So the passion statement, why this story is important to you,

20:54is so important. I mean, we all know that when you're pitching, you've got to say your passion statement, but that research project to me just confirmed to me that you should say your passion statement first, not at the end when you're wrapping up. It's the most interesting thing about your project and I have scientific evidence to prove it.

21:16Caris: And well, so if we could just talk more broadly about pitching to start off with. So What is the purpose of a pitch? Why is it important?

21:27Holly: Okay, so it really depends who you're pitching to. If you're pitching to a panel to win money, it's performative. It's a show, right? If you're pitching to a head of Netflix because you want them to give you some development money to write up two then that's all about story. That's all about characters. And you also are trying to pitch yourself because you're trying to get Netflix to trust you.

21:54Like they they're not going to give money if you if you haven't done anything yet and you don't have a plan of how you're going to achieve what you're promising. So, yeah, I guess it depends who who you're pitching to. Recently, last time I went to Screen Forever, I was trying to help someone get a producer attached And it kind of what wasn't my personal project, but that was just about feeling the room, trying to find a producer who might be interested in this project. And I had kind of failed many times, about eight different times I failed to gain any interest. And then I'm getting a coffee and I said to someone, nice skirt.

22:38And it just so happened that she was a ah Bollywood fan, very good Melbourne producer. And we got talking and she became attached to this show, which had some Bollywood elements. So sometimes it's just you made conversation and then it became natural and you didn't have to have a rehearsed speech.

23:00Caris: Well, is that um example... That kind of sounds like an elevator pitch. So I wonder if we could talk about the kinds of pitches there are.

23:09Holly: Well, okay. Elevator pitch. That comes from you're in an elevator. You're only going to the third floor. So you've got 60 seconds. But like for me at Channel 7, Larry Emdur is always in the lift. You've got 60 seconds to impress Larry Emdur. Go.

23:26So that's a high pressure pitch. For me, I would just do something simple. Like no one likes it if you're in the lift for 60 seconds and they're trying to get a job. Give me a job. Give me money. Give me a job, right? It's just got to be, hi, I hope you had a nice weekend. Oh, by the way, my name's Holly. Would you mind if I sent you an email later?

23:48And you're not even pitching it there. You were just gently saying, hello, maybe ah I'm this person and I can catch you later. So for me, the elevator pitch is just a simple, small talk.

24:00And if you get a good vibe, maybe you can try to make them remember your name. And then pitching to um producers, well, you've got to a point where they've invited you to have a meeting, so they must already like you. They've probably already Googled you. They know your CV. And now you really want to impress them with the story that you've got here. So what you want to do is really pull out all the unique elements that of your story. Why is it original?

24:32Why are they going to sit up straighter? And I feel like people switch off at detail. So going through your pilot story and then this happens and then in scene two, this happens and then they get in the car.

24:45I feel like you need to be a lot broader than doing that. And as you know, I love the performative pictures because you've got the stage and hopefully you've brought a gimmick and so they're going to remember you. I love those. And I also think part of pitching is what I do every Monday and Tuesday, not pitching your own shows, but you're in a writer's room and you've got an idea pitching that.

25:10You've got to have confidence. You've got to be able to read the room. When is your pitch welcome? You know, stay on what the room is talking about. If you're talking about the werewolf, don't then say, hey, why don't we go back over here and introduce a frog? You know, like stay on the path. But I think pitching in the writer's room is also just as important as pitching your own material.

25:36Caris: Yeah, it's such a good point, especially like, yeah, reading the room and and knowing if ah it's the right time to pitch an idea, especially if you're more emerging in the room.

25:45Holly: Yeah, I also find, and maybe this comes from experience, but we talked about this ah a little bit recently. A friend of mine said um if she's unsure about her pitch, and she's been writing for 20 years, but if she's unsure about her pitch, she starts with terrible idea, but blah, blah, blah, and then she'll say her pitch. And for me, I just really hate that. If you don't think it's a good idea, then please don't waste my time. Like if you're pitching it and that we have this conversation because she thought it was a good precursor to break the ice.

26:24And it really created a debate between like whoever we were talking with because half the writers were like, no, you must declare your pitch with confidence. And the other half were like, I'll take that on board. I'm going to do that next time.

26:37So I don't know which is the right one, Paris.

26:40Caris: It feels very Australian to be like, oh, I'm just going to be a bit self-deprecating book before I put my... Whereas a lot of people are saying that Australians need to like lean in and be more confident when they present themselves. Yeah.

26:53Holly: And maybe it's because of the writer's room I'm in. Like maybe if I had a week to plot one episode, but because we're plotting five eps in two days, I'm like, don't waste the sentence. Just go, go, you know? So it it it was funny that the level of debate this conversation caused on whether it was a good way or a bad way. it was interesting. Yeah.

27:18Caris: Just a quick note that this episode is brought to you by AFTRS, the Australian Film, Television and Radio School. If you're looking to learn alongside experienced industry professionals, build networks and accelerate your career in Australia's screen industry, the Master of Arts Screen Business at AFTRS is now taking applications for their next intake. Offering flexible study options, the course is designed to support ongoing career growth and long-term success. by building your commercial, strategic and leadership skills. In doing so, you can expand your opportunities, not just in producing, but in screen business, creative leadership and entrepreneurship.

27:53If this sounds like the course for you, explore the Master of Arts Screen Business through the link in the show notes and submit an application for the upcoming intake.

28:04And, ah you know, when you are constructing a pitch, are there certain key things that you need to hit? Like obviously title, but like a hook or genre, tone, like other things that you need to capture?

28:17Holly: um Definitely. I would say hopefully you've conveyed your genre and also tone in the title. Don't forget your underpants. I think I've conveyed the the tone in my title, right? It's a crazy kids show, Yeah. And it might be a bit rude in places.

28:36So I would pick out your your best scene. is it it Sometimes it's your inciting incident. Sometimes it's the all is lost moment, the moment when the character is never going to get through this, right? And you just spell out that scene.

28:52Caris, imagine a character. they get home and their house is in flames and their toddler is inside. Like get your your big moment and you can tell that moment in detail, right? I would also identify what is original and unique about your show because television is so oversaturated at the moment.

29:15How is yours standing out? So I would also pull out, what tell people why you think it's unique and And sometimes I give you some dialogue in my pitch, especially if it's a comedy. For instance, I often, when I'm pitching space virgins, I use the catchphrase, hey, how do you control an erection at zero gravity?

29:39And I think that conveys tone very clearly. In space, no one can hear you orgasm is the tagline for space virgins. So really, if you've got a good tagline or you've got a good line of dialogue,

29:53that kind of can shine a light on the character. It doesn't have to be funny. It can be very serious. But sometimes just pulling out key lines of dialogue will really give an impression of the show. And then if you get to a point where they go, tell me more about the story of your pilot, you really do need to have it in the back of your mind so you can do that. But you don't want to start there. You don't want to start with the detail.

30:22Caris: And another thing that people do is they use comps. so it's like Jaws, but Aliens or what are comps? And do you think that they're necessary? Do they help in terms of tone or things like that? So comps, comparisons,

30:38Holly: shows you can compare to So I actually, um i ran a debate club at AFTRS and one of our debate topics was, should you have comps in your show? Affirmative and negative spoke to that.

30:52So i think personally, and nobody agrees with me, nobody, Caris, you probably don't agree with me. I think that you should not have a comp because a comp is admitting that your show is like another show.

31:06And what you're trying to do in your pitch is be super original. So then to go, oh, you know, it's BoJack Horseman. meets Friday Night Lights. You're like, well, now I've just told you it's about two different shows and I was trying to do a magic trick and for you not to notice that it was like another show, right? There was a theory that you could say it was like a book so then you weren't like ah ah like a novel. It really reminds me of um The Age of Innocence. Do you know what I mean? Like, do you make it a novel so you're not comparing a TV show on a TV show? However, um a lot of producers ah disagree with me on this. I remember Shay Spencer saying to me, Holly, it helps me when I'm listening, grab onto tone and references to have the comps. And in my last failed request for funding from Screen Australia, one of the the feedback comments was, what are the comps?

32:03And I'm like, no, I don't do the comps. Like I really disagree with it. So I think it's a losing battle. So what I would say is make sure your comps are the most amazing mash-up anyone has ever thought of, right?

32:18Like it's Peppa Pig meets The Pitt. Like make sure your mash-up will make someone sit up straighter if you have to have a comp, but also have in the back of your mind that Holly Lyons hates all comps.

32:32I don't know what the right answer is.

32:35Caris: Do you know? i I also would say that I do remember there was a time where I heard like everything was – compared to the it show of the time. So this is just like Fleabag. This is just like, and so maybe also be aware that if you are doing comps, don't just compare it to the most famous show, beloved show at the time, because everyone will be trying to do that and replicate that show.

33:05Holly: um i do i did hear a funny story of a friend of mine who was pitching in LA and they used a comp and then their agent whispered to them, that guy was fired from that show.

33:17Should of Should of not - have mentioned that show. um So I would also check who you're pitching to. I'm a 50-year-old woman. do not be pitching young people shows that I probably haven't watched.

33:30You know what I mean? Like really think about because you also don't want to alienate who you're pitching to by telling them that they're not cool because they haven't caught up with the latest whatever show that they should have watched, you know. say yeah, comps are dangerous. Well,

33:47Well, that also

33:49Caris: touches on audience a little bit. So you were talking there about the audience for your pitch, but part of a pitch is also identifying the audience for the show or film or whatever it is. Could you, do you have any advice?

34:02Holly: Yeah, look, I know that everyone is ah always asking who is the audience, who is going to watch this. I think there are a lot of good resources on this. There was a podcast, I think it's on the Screen Australia website, of identifying your audience because actually now when you're pitching podcasts

34:22They want you to look at the statistics, look at the ratings, who was watching that, what demographic appealed to that. And it's actually quite involved. I think if you're just a screenwriter, people are expecting you to have done quite a lot of research. Like if your feature film is like this other feature film that came out last year, okay,

34:45Who went to see it? What was the demographic? How many tickets were sold? So I do think there is an expectation that the creator now has to answer who are they pitching to. But I also think that's probably right. When you're writing it, who do you imagine is going to watch it? You like you can't just write blindly. You have to like picture who is going to be watching this show. Who were you designed it for?

35:12Caris: Mmm And another thing that probably comes up when people are pitching, regardless of the pitch, is nerves and anxiety. Do you have any tips on that? You know, stance, breathing, I don't know, preparation, anything?

35:27Holly: Look, I think i good nerves are good. Adrenaline makes you perform better. So some nerves are good, okay. There's a really great TED Talk. well I think her name is Cuddy (check show notes for link). And she there's a lot of research about how to stand. And she tells you before a presentation, go in front of the mirror and do the victory pose and yell for five minutes. and And it's got scientific backing to do that. Now, I love an audience, so I don't need to go and scream at the mirror before my pitches, but I know for other people that they do. The Australian Writers Guild um in Sydney, every year they run like ah a pitching where And it's really good practice. It's a really safe space. It's just a bunch of writers. And you you get up and you do a pitch for two minutes.

36:23There's no broadcaster. There's no producer. People clapping. Like, it's a really safe space to practice your pitch. So if you do have nerves, go to stuff like that. Very low key. And you practiced and you got up in front of some strangers and you did your pitch and now you're ready to go to Screen Forever and do it again. So I would just say look for the safe spaces if you do have nerves. But, yes, I think that the nerves thing, writers can't just sit at home anymore. You are expected to be in public. So you need to get used to that.

36:58Caris: Mm-hmm. And okay, so let's say you do your pitch, it goes so well, you feel amazing about it, but you aren't successful in whatever way.

37:10Because the industry, you know, it is subjective. um And how do you deal with that?

37:18Holly: I think this is a great question, Caris, because out of all my pitches, I reckon 10% have been successful, 90% have been a fail. But is it a fail or is it just ammunition, education? And my theory for everything is everything leads to something. So, for instance, don't forget your underpants.

37:42The show didn't go off. The yeah UK wasn't ready for such vulgar humour from five-year-olds. But I was then hired, recruited to write a number of bibles for preschool shows at that time. It led to a lot of work, right? Hamlet's Diner, the the show never got commissioned, but the woman from the BBC on the panel, i'm I'm still friends with her. She got me quite a lot of work after that. She was actually my age and we and we had ah a good relationship. Detention, the show that I absolutely love, Matchbox options. We went with Chris Oliver -Taylor to the ABC and pitched it to the commissioner at the time.

38:27She was worried about manslaughter for teenagers. like There were a couple of dark crimes. So that didn't go anywhere. But I had introduced myself quite successfully to Matchbox. Everything leads to something. If you pitch, there will be someone in the audience who goes, Caris, now she's a star. I want to meet her.

38:50So are you pitching just to get your show on the road? No, you're pitching to show everyone who you are, what your genre is, what your skills are.

39:01There's a show I pitched in London when I first got there called My Brother the Legend and it was to a woman who actually now lives in Australia, which is just the best, and she's currently working um at Werner and somebody asked her, what was the show for you, the show that got away? i love that phrase. And she said, oh, it's this show Holly Lyons pitched when we were in our 20s. So it's like I pitched a show, it didn't go anywhere, but 25 years later i have an industry connection who has ah a memory. So I would just urge everyone to don't get down if your pitch didn't go anywhere because actually it probably did go somewhere. It's going to surprise you in five years when you get a call.

39:49And also if you don't have resilience, to have the rejection, that's a bit difficult because 90% of your pitches are going to be denied.

39:59Caris: And, yeah, this industry, there is so much rejection in it. Rejection makes you stronger.

40:07but Yes, yeah, I've heard that. And someone um once told me that it's like any muscle and you'll bounce back yes and build that resilience over time.

40:18Holly: Yeah, just buy a handbag and then you'll be fine.

40:23Caris: And then so in terms of advice, um do you have any advice for writers more broadly?

40:30Holly: um i have thought about this question and I really think Be humble is my is my best advice. 50% of emerging writers that I meet have a lot of respect for Home and Away. How do you produce five episodes a week? Your story brain must be on fire.

40:49And then 50% are Home and Away. Why would you work there? And I just think, well, if you haven't watched the show in a year, i don't think you you have the any um right to say that to it to anyone. Be humble.

41:05Don't be a snob about anything. um I also urge everyone to make friends with the juniors. If you're at an event, and that's my other advice, go to everything you can possibly go to, but if you're at an event and and you're introduced to the script coordinator, you do not turn your nose up at that because they are the ones who know, hey, I'm going to Greece. Would you like to cover for me for two weeks? Hey, I'm actually resigning. Do you want my job? They are the people that will get you the entry-level jobs. So that's who you need to be networking with, especially if you're emerging. And my other advice that I've done all my career, say yes to everything.

41:46And this, everything, that goes back to everything leads to something else. um I was offered to write on Fireman Sam when I was in my 20s. I didn't have children. i was like, why would I want to write on Fireman Sam?

42:02That's crazy. Anyway, I said yes, and Fireman Sam translated into so many language languages. It's one of the shows that I still get residual payments for, which not a lot. I'm not saying ah it's a lot. And sometimes when my friends, but a few years ago now really, but I used to get messages going, Holly, I'm just watching Fireman Sam with my toddler and I saw your name.

42:30So why not say yes to everything? And you will also, Fireman Sam was the first show I ever worked on where you had to plot by yourself. There was not a budget for a writers' room. And that is just a great exercise in yourself.

42:46ah in itself. It was also around the time where you weren't a allowed to have fires on Fireman Sam. So you can't have a fire and you're plotting by yourself. Good luck with that. So I would just say saying yes to everything and being humble is the best place to start. But the other thing I've really learned recently, especially through my clients, people these days are so much more fortunate than I was when I was at film school.

43:16You can get your content out there. You don't need funding from anybody. You don't need a broadcaster. This um really talented women came to me for notes on their web series. I so asked them how they were going to shoot it They said they were going to shoot it in 11 days and I believe them.

43:36And they're just amazing. Like, what don't wait. You can get your content out there so easily these days and you should.

43:46Caris: Yeah, definitely.

43:48So that brings us to our final segment, which is the Pay It Forward segment. so that's where i you'll be asked a question from a previous guest and then you'll come up with a question for us to ask the next guest.

44:02So previous guest was acclaimed theatre director and now producer working with Jacaranda Productions at Sarah Goodes. So Sarah's question was...

44:15Holly: Mine's a bit esoteric because our industry, you know, we talk a lot about our industry. and But the one thing I think is the great last fortress is our mind so from AI and everything. So my question is what did you dream about last night?

44:33The last time I dreamt was Look, this is it. Caris, I find this really hard because I often don't remember what um my dreams are unless they're terrifying warnings about what not to do. um So um i think that my last dream was about my daughter doing her HSC and yelling at me because I have...

45:03Often I keep telling her it does not matter what her marks are and she yells at me, it matters to me! And I think my dream was very much connected to this HSC stress. So, yeah, my nightmares are quite terrifying. It's about a teenage girl yelling at me.

45:24Caris: Yes. But you can't get that from AI.

45:27Holly: So Sarah's probably right. It's a great question, right? Your your dreams are not infected by AI at all.

45:37Caris: Well, we will leave it there. i won't take up any more of your time. But thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Thank you so much for doing this podcast for everyone to listen to.

45:48Holly: it And thank you for having me.

45:51Caris: That was screenwriter and story producer Holly Lyons and a big thanks to Holly for joining me on the podcast as well as to our sponsor AFTRS, the Australian Film, Television and Radio School. This episode was produced and edited by myself with logo design by Shara Parsons and music by Seb SebOTage Gavrilovich. If you enjoyed listening, please hit that subscribe button and leave us a review.

46:12See you in a fortnight.